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Parents panel discussion group project

As one way of giving New Zealand families a voice the Families Commission is working with community organisations to hear the views of people raising children in different communities and different circumstances. In this trial phase of the project there are three discussion groups in Auckland and one in Dargaville. Each group will meet three times to discuss what life is like for them and others in their communities.

The first round of meetings took place between 13th March 2008 and 10th April 2008. Meetings were coordinated by:

  • KidStart at Barnardos in Royal Oak - 11 participants from families with one or two parents in paid work (4 men, 7 women)
  • The teenage parents’ programme at Auckland Women’s Centre in Grey Lynn (8 participants, all women)
  • Hippy at Mangere East Family Services Centre -11 participants, Pacific families (3 men, 8 women)
  • Plunket in the Dargaville area (8 participants, rural families, all women)

The focus topic for this round of meetings was Making Ends Meet. Participants were invited to think about questions like the following.

  • How much income is needed to cover the costs of raising a family?
  • What sort of choices and tradeoffs are made to make the money go further?
  • Do limited finances affect choices that are made about going to the doctor, the type of leisure activities that families take part in and the kind of food they buy?
  • Is owning their own home a reality for families these days?

This report feeds back the results of discussion that took place at the four meetings.

How much is needed to cover the costs of raising a family?

As participants pointed out the question of how much is needed to raise a family was not a simple one. It was hard to put a figure on this because ‘how much is enough’ will vary according to circumstances - where a family lives, their financial obligations, how many children they have and the kind of support they get from their wider family.

The level of income required depends on expectations about standard of living. For example, some families ‘want all the modern gadgets’ while others didn’t mind buying second hand - and for some families, expectations were influenced by pressure to ‘keep up’ with others.

‘One parent feeling the pressure to provide a birthday party with all the trimmings to match that of her child’s peers –cost factor the biggest thing. They felt they had to conform.’ (Royal Oak feedback report)

The Dargaville group said that ‘extra tuition for some families would be classed as an essential requirement for the children’s education, but for others this may be a desired ‘want’. Similarly, participants at Mangere East said that although they wanted the best for their families, sometimes this was hard to provide, either because ‘their kids’ wants were larger or more expensive then they could afford’ or what they themselves wanted to provide for their children (e.g. sports, music or art lessons) was too expensive. There was a general sense at all the meetings that, as the Dargaville group said, ‘most people feel that on some level they are struggling, that even a little extra income would assist’.

Three of the groups (Grey Lynn; Mangere East and Dargaville) discussed where their income came from. For example, the Grey Lynn young mothers receive income from a range of sources including full or partial Benefits (DPB, Invalids Benefit, Disability Allowance and Accommodation Supplement); Child Support; Working For Families; partner’s wages and gifts and loans from friends and relations.

"I get the DPB but most of the time I get help from my dad and sometimes I borrow money off my friend.” (20 year old mother with 9 month daughter)

Members of this group were all on very low incomes. Some were ineligible for DPB because they were under 18 and some were ineligible for other types of benefit because they were living in their parents’ home.

“I’m on Invalids Benefit and I only get $100 or something a week which doesn’t really go that far. I have to wait till I’m 18 in August to get full DPB” (17year old mother with 10 month old daughter, Grey Lynn)
‘One of the young mums is 18 and is working full time. Her wages are $512 in the hand. She pays her mum to look after her daughter at home. She is unable to receive Childcare Assistance because her daughter is cared for within the family but she mentioned she wouldn’t be back at work if she had to leave her baby in child care: “It’s just the way we do it in our family”. She is unable to afford a house of her own which also puts pressure on this family of eight living in a two bedroom house with three children under ten’ (Grey Lynn group feedback)

Being so short of money affected how these young women felt about themselves.

‘It was clear that the stress of the cost of living affected their ability to take part in normal family activities and to plan for unexpected living costs as they arose. All mentioned a feeling of being judged as a bad parent because they were on a benefit’. (Grey Lynn group feedback)

In Dargaville, the only rural group, participants are all mothers and from a wide range of circumstances including ‘husband earning $1000 a week’ to ‘two part time jobs for each parent’. This group thought that the system of assistance for families was less user-friendly - or even unavailable – to the self employed, such as farm owners. Participants noted that they received help from in laws and family. ‘Most felt they could pay the bills but achieve little else’. They discussed the possibility of achieving a second income in the future but were aware of barriers in their way, including the cost and time involved in travel to available jobs (up to forty minutes drive) and lack of suitable childcare. This was a significant issue for this group.

‘In our town most felt childcare is inadequate. The options of kindy and daycare tended to have large waiting lists of up to and over a year long. Even home carers were limited as they would be only allowed four children so should their own children be home, then that would reduce the availability. Plus whenever there are school holidays or children are sick other means would need to be found’. (Dargaville group feedback)

All the groups said that making ends meet is not just about money - it is about being linked into a wider family or community that offers support (such as looking after children so a parent can work, or giving advice when life is hard).

For Mangere East participants, churches helped make ends meet in several ways - for example church members cared for children within the family or provided advice on how to make ends meet. Churches are a place of spiritual guidance when having trouble making ends meet. Some said that community agencies were helpful in giving advice on how to make ends meet but sometimes the advice was not culturally appropriate (e.g. asking extended family living with you to leave). It was hard to get helpful information early enough - information only became available when people hit ‘rock bottom’.

This group took part in a brainstorming session and discussed issues that impact on families.

  • Families have to work multiple jobs and long hours, often for minimum wages. As the cost of living continues to rise, families will continue to work long hours for little pay. This discussion led participants to ask ‘What might this mean for our kids? Who will look after them if we always have to go to work and they are too old to go to after school care or we can’t afford after school care?
  • Some participants use the 20 hours free preschool education now available to working parents but need their children to be in care for longer periods of time so still have fees to pay.
  • Working For Families thresholds mean a few financially struggling families don’t qualify.
  • There are lots of costs involved in children’s education regardless of whether children are under five or at school level.
  • Some participants questioned why they should get off the benefit when the money they get is not much less than if they went to work – ‘plus they get to stay home with their kids’.
  • Two participants mentioned having to get higher qualifications in order to get better paying jobs in the future.

The Mangere East group pointed out that cultural expectations affect how families make ends meet. For many, extended families are a natural part of the immediate family and no distinction is made between ‘immediate family’ members and ‘extended family’ members. Rather the notion of ‘we are all one family’ was adopted by participants when discussing ‘family’ informally. Old people are normally cared for within the family home. ‘Although there is not enough income to support ‘immediate family’, yet families make it stretch somehow to cover both immediate family, extended family and sometimes others’.

Making ends meet – choices and tradeoffs

Financial strain influences the choices families make. This is not just about whether to buy something that might be good to have but not essential - it also sometimes means prioritising essential items and deciding what not to pay for. The Dargaville group wondered whether the financial strain involved in raising children may cause people to limit the number of children they have or choose to remain childless. They discussed just how much must be given up in order to raise children.

‘As parents we accept a level of sacrifice for our children but what most of us question is what degree is fair? Should we be giving up the big night out on a Friday, or should we be cutting costs on our dentist bills or doctors fees. Most of us thought that we as mothers are often the first to lose something, i.e. a new pair of shoes’. (Dargaville group feedback)

In Grey Lynn the young parents talked about running out of money completely and having to borrow from relatives or friends.

"When we are low on cash after the bills and nappies we have to ask my mate if I can borrow money which sometimes is embarrassing” (17 year old with 10 month daughter)

“I get the DPB but most of the time I get help from my dad and sometimes I borrow money off my friend (20 year old mother with 9 month daughter)

Their choices were limited because of their low income.“I work full time and my mum looks after my baby, but I still don’t have enough to move out of home and be independent” (18 year old mother with 7 month daughter)

The Grey Lynn group prioritised expenses in the following order:

  1. rent
  2. children’s needs (nappies, formula, medicine)
  3. bills (power, water, phone, hire purchase, loans
  4. groceries

All four groups agreed that they put their children first and themselves last - they do not skimp on food for their children. Taking children to the doctor was a priority for everyone.

‘We don’t think twice about taking our children to the doctors. Small children are free so great support from the government thanks!’ (Royal Oak)

However it was a different story when a parent needed to go to the doctor. Parents commented that they certainly think twice about this, not just because of the high cost but because of being too busy. Going to the dentist was much the same. Parents were glad that children could go to the dentist free but put off going themselves. In Dargaville ‘Someone hadn’t been for 10 years and was only now going under ACC’.

‘We save up sickness till one essential appointment. We don’t visit the dentist unless there is pain or a visible need. We don’t ‘check up’ our health, we only go if there is a visible problem’ (Dargaville group feedback)

The cost of housing was a key reason for tradeoffs mentioned by Royal Oak participants. One of these tradeoffs was the option of moving out of Auckland to get a house of equivalent standard at considerably less cost. Some mentioned friends who lived elsewhere (e.g. Christchurch) and were able to both own a house and have ‘one full time stay at home parent’ because they did not have to service a high mortgage. This was a far less likely possibility in Auckland, it was felt, where working long hours was necessary to meet accommodation costs. Someone at Royal Oak mentioned a situation where:

‘Dad is working full time and Mum worked part time when the babies were under three months then went back to work full time (able to take the babies to work with her until they were six months old). Then the children went into home based care full time’.

The Dargaville group noted that simply having children involved a trade-off for women. They felt that women give up income in order to have children and continue to ‘give up aspects of their lives’ and make sacrifices to put their children first. They talked about what they would buy if they had spare money. While they would first ensure that their children had ‘extras’ such as tuition, they dreamt of being able to buy ‘something special, something luxurious’ for themselves as well - currently out of the question.

‘Most of us mums noted that we had lost most in the family. Often the husbands and partners still had outdoor pursuits but we had lost our time, our figures, our lives! Many of us noted that every dollar earned had to be spent with thought. We couldn’t do spontaneous spending’ (Dargaville group feedback)

For all groups, saving for retirement was a much lower priority than making ends meet today.

‘Hardly any of the group had joined KiwiSaver as they needed all available money now. However several commented that they didn’t know enough about it to make an informed decision, and they wanted it explained to them at a more personal level and were open to having that happen. They suggested that KiwiSaver could send spokespeople into the workplace. Two parents shared that they were already involved in retirement savings schemes prior to having children, and that the money taken out of their pay was not noticed or taken into account as they already had been doing it so long that it wasn’t a factor in their “mortgage budget” since having children and owning a house. (One parent was involved in the Teachers Retirement Savings scheme)’ (Royal Oak group feedback)

The following list includes strategies discussed by groups for managing the balancing act involved in making ends meet. It shows that the reasons behind these strategies are not only financial.

  • Shop at cheaper grocery stores and buy the cheaper brands
  • Raise vege gardens
  • Borrow books, toys, car seats, clothes
  • Give up smoking, drinking, nights out
  • Clothe children in hand-me-downs or buy second hand
  • Don’t go out (too expensive - also hard to organise). Going out for a meal is costly for a whole family. Cheap entertainment options mentioned include hiring DVDs online rather than going out to movies.
  • Don’t travel or even visit as often for several reasons:
    • Expensive (petrol, accommodation)
    • Logistics and organisation
    • Choosing to spend time resting instead due to busy workload
    • Packing the car (so much stuff for children is required but one parent with three children has reduced the amount packed, e.g. less toys)
      ‘Participants commented that they required a bigger car to cater for children and equipment but couldn’t afford to upgrade’.
  • Limit medical expenses by shopping around for the cheapest doctor or using a free accident and emergency clinic.

Groups noted that making ends meet can have some positive spin offs, such as finding low cost or no cost leisure activities where the family and children are involved together (e.g. trips to parks or playgrounds, using concession tickets for the zoo or Kelly Tarltons, going to the library, Mainly Music or church playgroups). Participants agreed that young children are happy to spend time with their families doing something that costs nothing, like playing in the park, which could also be good exercise and interesting.

‘They were looking to activities that involved the whole family so it made it cost effective plus healthy to go on bike rides and explore the local and wider environment.’ (Royal Oak group feedback)

A home of our own?

The two groups that spent time discussing home ownership (Royal Oak and Dargaville) thought that this is currently beyond the reach of many New Zealand families. Indeed some participants thought that the idea that everyone can afford a home of their own has actually always been a myth. In the Royal Oak group nine participants owned their own home but the remaining two had found this impossible because house prices in Auckland are so high.

“My husband worked out that if the house price is more than three times our total annual salary then it would not be affordable for us to buy” (Royal Oak participant)

The Royal Oak group said that house prices have risen so rapidly in Auckland that to buy an adequate house the right size for your family is not viable.

‘One person commented that they had recently (within the past few years) bought a house with a 100% mortgage. Now they have two children and would like to have a third, but feel their house would not be big enough’ (Royal Oak group feedback)

In Dargaville, where prices are not so high, participants who had fulfilled ‘the dream of owning a house’ had done so not so much by raising a deposit but by using a windfall (e.g. an inheritance or tax rebate) or by getting a no-deposit loan. They believed that rising house prices, together with the rising cost of food and other costs like insurance, meant that many families will at best have to postpone buying a first home.

Participants thought that the ‘Kiwi dream/expectation to own your own house’ was still so strong because it gave a sense of security and control - you could do your own alterations and there were financial benefits. Even with high interest rates and the current dip in the market they believed that house prices would rise again. The Royal Oak group believed ‘you could still make a capital gain by holding onto your house’.

On the other hand, renting was often problematic. There was always the possibility that you might have to move out, for example if the landlord sold the house. This causes upheaval in a family’s life. Also rents are high, especially in Auckland.

‘The cost of renting in Auckland on a low income is a major concern, even for those who live with family. Only one parent was living in a Housing New Zealand property. There was a common agreement that the cost of rent caused high stress for the parents on a weekly basis’. (Grey Lynn group feedback)

Common strands

The discussion prompted by the question of ‘how much is needed to cover the costs of raising a family?’ showed that participants thought that in their communities people like them were only just getting by financially. Families with two working parents might have a higher standard of living but they paid for it by feeling pressed for time. Without two incomes families could afford the basics but never any luxuries. Some got by only with help from their wider family or community. All the groups understood the serious consequences of not making ends meet. The Mangere East group noted the danger of falling into the trap of resorting to loan sharks as a result of gambling or bad money management. The Dargaville group noted the tension between sacrifice and getting into debt.

‘Debt in New Zealand is ever increasing and often it is because we have little or no choice. As parents we give up the things that tend to make us happy as these are the additional payments we have to make. We give up the outings and so we either miss them and get sad or we put them on credit hoping to pay them off later…Or we get dragged into the debt cycle, maxing out credit cards or personal loans’ (Dargaville group feedback)

While acknowledging different levels of financial strain, all groups were united in saying strongly that children must come first.

A flying start

As the co-ordinator of this project I want to say a very big thank you to everyone for putting so much effort, time and enthusiasm into making this first round of meetings such a success. The great work done by co-ordinators and participants has got the project off to a flying start.